Podcasting has exploded in the last 5 years, with every celebrity, brand, and influencer investing in audio. It’s estimated that 144MM people in the U.S. listen to a podcast monthly. With scale and an ability to build audience connections, podcasts have become effective at communicating complex information in a digestible way–making them perfect for sharing science-based stories. Many have heard the term "gene therapy," but how many know what it means? How do you explain the science behind artificial intelligence or designing the Mars Rover? Audio allows us to do this, while enhancing the impact of science communications. Join the Pfizer Podcast team, NASA, UT Austin, and Wonder Media Network as they share their audio expertise and accessible approach to scientific storytelling.
Podcasting has exploded in the last 5 years, with every celebrity, brand, and influencer investing in audio. It’s estimated that 144MM people in the U.S. listen to a podcast monthly. With scale and an ability to build audience connections, podcasts have become effective at communicating complex information in a digestible way–making them perfect for sharing science-based stories. Many have heard the term "gene therapy," but how many know what it means? How do you explain the science behind artificial intelligence or designing the Mars Rover? Audio allows us to do this, while enhancing the impact of science communications. Join the Pfizer Podcast team, NASA, UT Austin, and Wonder Media Network as they share their audio expertise and accessible approach to scientific storytelling.
Featured experts:
This episode was recorded live in Austin, TX on Monday March 11 as part of Pfizer’s takeover of the South by Southwest podcasting lounge.
Live from SXSW - Scientific Storytelling: The Audio Advantage
Bonus Episode
Narrator
The podcasting world has exploded in the last five years. Celebrities, brands, and influencers have invested in audio. Millions of people in the US listen to podcasts, and the medium has become the perfect place to not only entertain, but to inform. On this special episode of Science Will Win, we are sharing one of a series of conversations recorded live at the Pfizer Podcasting Lounge at South by Southwest. This panel explored the role storytelling plays in scientific innovation, wonder Media Network's, co-founder Shera Atkins, sat down with Katie Conan's, lead of NASA's audio and podcast strategy. Kristin Wynn, program manager at the Live Strong Cancer Institutes, and Ellen Gerstein, head of digital communications at Pfizer to talk about how they make scientific storytelling accessible through audio. Audio. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Shira
Hello and good morning, everybody. So nice to see you bright and early. Um, and I'm thrilled to be here to moderate this session about the advantage of audio storytelling to demystify and share true meaning behind scientific concepts. Um, so just quick background on me before we get into it. Um, my name is Shera Atkins. I co-founded a podcasting company called Wonder Media Network about six years ago. We create original content and we also develop content for brands and publishers. And we have been working with Pfizer for going on five years now. Um, have been super fortunate to develop a number of podcasts with the team. Um, and so the bias that I'm bringing to the session today is that audio is the best medium to create direct relationships with your customers and your listeners and your patients, and whomever it is that you're trying to reach because of not only the intimacy that everyone speaks about all the time, but because it is a long form medium at its heart conversations. Like these are ones that, um, in audio when your eyes are closed and you hear it in your ear, you can get deeper, um, than you can in any other media. So I wanna take a moment to go around and introduce ourselves, and then we'll get into it. We'll play some audio. It's gonna be a great time. Okay, Katie, why don't you start, tell us a little bit about yourself and, um, if you could also share some of the podcasts that you're, that you guys have made, that would be great.
Katie
Absolutely. So, good morning everyone. First and foremost, just wanted to thank you all for spending some of your morning with us. My name is Katie Conans, and I lead NASA's audio and podcast strategy. So I oversee creative and editorial across our slate of original podcast, which you can find at nasa.gov/podcast. I launched our flagship show, NASA's Curious Universe in 2020, and at the end of last year just launched, uh, its Spanish companion Uno Cosa Nessa Audio Storytelling has become such a vital part of NASA's overall digital communication strategy, and it's allowing us to, you know, engage with people in a brand new way. So I'm excited to have this conversation. I know you all will appreciate hearing from these amazing panelists as much as I've, I've appreciated learning from them.
Kristen
Thank you. Thanks, Katie. My name's Kristen Wynn. I am a program manager at the Livestrong Cancer Institutes, which is an academic cancer center that's part of the University of Texas at Austin and Dell Medical School. Hook 'em horns. Welcome to our beautiful city of Austin. We're so glad to have you today. I'm, I'm thrilled to be on this panel this morning and, and hear and learn from the other panelists that are here. But my work at ut, my work at the Live Strong Cancer Institutes, I wear many hats, but the biggest one is our education pipeline. So we have education programming for students as young as sixth grade, and then we have programming all the way through our junior faculty. So we're really trying to meet people where they are within their career path. And so we have several programs, um, that I oversee and our podcast called Cancer Uncovered, an Education and Empowerment podcast is actually a part of that education pipeline.
Kristen
So it was designed to reach a younger audience, young adults, teenagers, so our high school and undergraduate students. And really the, the, the goal of the podcast is to, um, have some really authentic, honest conversations about cancer, what it is and what it is not, but also it's not a secret that we're trying to recruit students and to do this work with us, right, to continue the work of oncology after we are gone. It's important that this work continues, and it's important that the work continues to improve and to represent the people that we care for. So, thrilled, thrilled to talk today about the podcast and the work that everybody does. Thanks for having me,
Ellen
Alan Gerstein. I head up digital communications at Pfizer, and thankfully podcasting is under my remit meeting, uh, Katie and Kristen and knowing Sherra, I, I geek out over the work that they do. Um, my job at Pfizer is to kind of reveal a little bit about what goes on behind the scenes, to tell the stories of the work that we do and the patients that are impacted by our work. And we find podcasting to be a fabulous way to have those kind of conversations because as Sherra said, you're getting in somebody's head and we have a lot of trust with our audience, and we don't take that for granted. You're giving us 20 to 30 minutes of your time, so we wanna make sure you're educated, informed, and hopefully sometimes even entertained. Um, it's a remarkable opportunity that we have, and like I said, we don't take it for granted. I've been with Pfizer seven years, we've been able to tell those stories through our two main podcast. The antigen and science will win.
Shira
Amazing. Welcome. So you all just touched on some of the goals that we have when we develop this content and specifically develop it in audio education, a little bit of entertainment recruitment. But what I wanna go deeper on right now is just this notion of demystification. So Katie, I thought what we could do is play a clip from the upcoming series on Helios, on the sun from Curious Universe, and then hear a little bit from you on what you're trying to do with de mystic communication and what it really means to you. So if you don't mind queuing that up
Clip #1
Every day you wake up, see the sun, hopefully, and it's an amazing thing that we take for granted. It's time to get reacquainted with the sun.
You may think you know our star, but with NASA's curious universe, you'll see the sun the way NASA scientists do.
As you get closer and closer to the sun, it goes from being this beautiful, timid yellow ball of gas to being this very exciting, very powerful, chaotic surface where something's always going on this spring. Learn what the sun is actually up to. You know, it almost looks like to me like volcanic eruptions, but then it follows these paths, beautiful paths across the surface
And follow the people. Finding new ways to look at one of humanity's oldest companions.
Uh, scientists in a way are weird creatures. People usually look for the easy life scientists. They are always looking for problems.
In our new miniseries, you'll learn why 2024 is a big year for sun scientists. Get ready for a total solar eclipse when the cosmic machinery of the solar system creates an unforgettable experience.
An eclipse is all about being at the right place.
The hair on the back of my neck is standing up at
The right time.
My heart is racing
And things literally aligning just with you,
And you just get a visceral feeling in your gut that something is wrong. This does not seem natural
Shira
Powerful.
Ellen
This sounds like a great podcast to run to anybody who's a runner.
Shira
Yeah. So te so tell me about, um, what you're trying to achieve here and what demystification of these concepts seism means to you throughout the creative process.
Katie
But I think it, it's a very powerful example of the type of storytelling that we're able to leverage with NASA's podcast and how we're able to engage with folks. Uh, curiosity is at the heart of the flagship podcast, NASA's curious universe, and you don't need a science or an engineering background to just be curious about the universe that we all share. Um, so this is an invitation from NASA to podcast listeners to come get curious with your space agency and learn things that you won't learn elsewhere. You know, go on adventures with astronauts, scientists, engineers that you won't find anywhere else. Um, it's really important to us that we're leveraging, you know, NASA's position that we, so that we can bring stories to people that they won't find on other science podcasts. And we want you to be excited. I, I speak with so many people who they love nasa, they have a positive association with nasa.
Katie
Maybe they're not as familiar with what the agency is up to in the day to day. Um, a lot of people might have a reference point where they've seen a launch or they follow NASA on social media and they love the space imagery, and they're like, this is amazing. NASA's curious universe and our other podcasts really invite audiences to come and discover more alongside nasa, you know, the, the why behind a story or, or or behind an image. You know, how did this image get captured and what does it mean for astrophysicists that are really excited because this image that you love, just because it's beautiful, it actually changes everything. And I think that's just at the heart of the show is, um, we're able to really bring listeners on this exciting journey and, uh, journey towards discovery and learning alongside NASA and alongside top NASA experts in a very conversational, um, connection focused way.
Shira
Amazing. So I wanna play another clip now from the Science Will Win podcast from this last season, which was about ai. Before I play it, I don't know, Ellen, if you wanna just share a little bit of background about what this season was, um, and then we can talk a little bit more about how, again, we're using various voices to unpack extremely complicated concepts for a pretty wide audience.
Ellen
I was in a panel yesterday where they got to the end of the conversation and finally said, wait a minute. We're at South by. We have to talk about ai. Um, we have to get it in there. And that's how I sometimes feel at work. There's a lot of AI being talked about, and it was sort of my personal curiosity that led to the season being about AI and obviously other people, you know, playing into that. But in practicality, what are we using AI for? I was tired of the conversation being, are you scared of ai? Are you apprehensive about it? No, there are amazing things that can be done when it is in the right hands. And we ended up focusing, um, thanks to the work of a lot of people other than myself and Shira's team at wonder on antimicrobial resistance and how AI can play into solving this problem that is, you know, really around the globe and telling the stories of the, the scientists, the researchers who are working on drug development in that field. And the stories just kind of came out of the woodwork, but they told how this very, you know, abstract concept was being applied in the real world. So I'll shut up now and you can hear the clip.
Shira
Yeah, let's hear the science will win clip
Clip #2
The, the classical way. How we, how we work in the lab. It's a lot of labor. So you would need to stain the slide, uh, apply the, uh, gram stain potentially manually nowadays. We would also have robots who do that. But let's assume we do this manually.
The stain helps technicians figure out whether the bacteria are gram-positive or gram-negative. That's essentially a classification for differences in the cell wall of the bacteria that can also help technicians identify the species.
Then you put the slide under the microscope, you have to focus yourself so there's no auto focus done by the robot. So it's really on your own. Look through the slide, you know, slowly scanning through the slide. It takes ages and then maybe it's, uh, you know, you're right after lunch, you are tired,
That's where artificial intelligence comes in, by helping to increase productivity around these tasks.
And I think that's the beauty of ai. So it's, it's consistent and humans can also do more exciting jobs than screening a microscopy slide. So if we have a sample and we, for example, look, uh, under the microscope and we do a gram staining, then automated image analysis using AI can recognize gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. It can separate rods and cocci and it can really do this in a very consistent way. Um, and very precisely
Shira
What I love about this clip is, um, I don't know how many of you here are scientists, but I think if you're here, you probably have some curiosity about science. Uh, we certainly do. And there's a study that's been done that actually says that curiosity and love of learning correlates to predilection for podcast listening. Because as you could hear in that story, like you're underneath a microscope, you're learning about ai, it's like these concepts that are actually like, really difficult to grasp, but you're hearing it in such a way that feels so so human. And so Kristen, I wanted to ask you how you think about that, particularly in the framework of recruiting learning learners and making sure that the content that you develop is really grabbing people in and and inviting them on this list, this learning journey. Absolutely. So I'm excited to talk about
Kristen
This, this, so our podcast was developed really as, um, as an answer to students that wanted to dig in and have more. So we might have a program where high school students are with us for two weeks, or undergraduate students are with us for 10 weeks doing research, but we wanted to be able to, to scratch that itch, right? So if we had a question about a certain type of research that's being done on our campus, they can go and listen to that recording, but we also wanna make it accessible. So we do a lot of planning with our scientists, we do a lot of planning with our researchers and our clinicians about, um, making it easy to digest. And I'm never scared to ask a follow up question or can you, can you tell us more about that acronym? Like can you say, can you say that out loud?
Kristen
And all of our people that have come on to record with us, understand they understand the mission that, you know, we were once that kid too, that had questions. We weren't sure, we weren't sure where to go. We want this to be authentic and fluid and something that's easy to listen to maybe while you're on the bus to school or, you know, getting ready in the morning. Um, but, but we want students to understand that they can do this too, right? We want people to understand that, you know, you also don't have to do this work after you get your md right? You can start helping people with, with cancer now in your community. Um, so we're really just trying to make this as authentic as possible that those research scientists that are super smart, they're, they're people too, right? These clinicians that maybe you're intimidated to talk to in one of our sessions that we do in person, they're people too, right? And they started somewhere and we're trying to constantly remind students of that.
Shira
Yeah. So there's this really big emphasis, even when we're talking about solar eclipses, um, or oncology on the human element here. I do, I wanna talk about cancer specifically, um, to start, and we'll come back to you, Katie, but you know, both Pfizer and UT Austin have covered oncology from admittedly pretty different angles and it's obviously an incredibly complex topic and an emotional one and a difficult one, not only for, you know, the lay person, but also for scientists. And so I'd love to hear a bit more from each of you about how you, um, how you approach this topic internally, especially given the outlive cancer initiative at Pfizer. And then for you, just how you're carving out that niche. So Ellen, maybe start with you.
Ellen
Sure. Um, on our end, cancer is personal. I, it it's rare that you meet somebody who hasn't been touched with it in some way or some form either personally a friend, a relative. It's a great responsibility to be able to tell those stories around cancer. Whether it's talking about research that's being done that can give hope to patients or talking to patients about their experiences. Um, we've kind of only scratched the surface, I think, of what we're capable of doing. Talking about drug development, talking about what our researchers are doing. We very much want to get more into the weeds as much as we can. And it really does all revolve around the patients, how we can deliver hope to them and, you know, inform them, educate them, make sure they're doing what they can to protect themselves. It's something that we look at what we're gonna do for future seasons of science will win.
Ellen
And there's so much out there that we, we start thinking, alright, we could branch, branch off here and branch off there. Um, but it, it really does at the end of the day, focus on what is the patient experiencing, what are they thinking, what can we give them that's going to make their day better and working from there. And you know, Kristen, some of the podcasts that UT has come out with do such a good job of addressing that patient experience in a way that, um, I think it's something we all struggle with, the language around cancer and how you talk about it both from somebody on the outside and somebody experiencing it. So I'd also love to hear you kind of talk about that because it, it feels very intentional when I listen to your podcasts.
Kristen
Yes, absolutely. So, and I love what you said Ellen, about there's so many directions you could take this, right? Uh, oncology, there, there is so, so much you could do with this. So we have to look at it from our lens and what we can offer. We're a small academic cancer center, so we do research, we see patients education is a major focus and we also make sure that voices that are doing work in the community are heard. So we hear from community leaders, we also talk to patients about their experience. Um, and that these are really difficult topics, right? This is very difficult to talk about. Cancer is still really taboo depending on where you live and your culture and where you grew up. Cancer is still something that people die from. It's right under heart disease, right, for the second most kind of deadly thing in America. And so we want to make this something that we can talk about that we're not scared to talk about and, and acknowledge that it is scary, um, and that it does seem to still matter where you live or how you're insured or what, how you grew up, um, depending on treatment options and, and care options. So I don't know if that definitely answered the question or Yeah, definitely. I
Shira
Actually, I think that's a good moment actually to play the UT Austin clip.
Clip #3
Every single person that I take care of has a different story. They have a different life, they have different support systems, different financial resources, different educational backgrounds. And that means that every single person needs to be treated differently. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you give a different chemotherapy, it might, but it means that you take into account every single part of this person and that you artistically, creatively come up with a plan that is gonna work for them. And so that oftentimes requires getting resources that maybe you didn't know existed before. And knowing about what is available to us, how can we do this? One of the things that I realized about my job is that having connections, understanding systems, how to navigate things that accounts for a lot and being able to help each individual patient get what they need, I think really makes the art of medicine. That's what makes it possible.
Shira
So beautiful. So I wanna ask one more question about strategy before we turn to the creative portion of this morning. We used words like inclusive and accessibility a lot broadly in audio, but specifically when we're talking about scientific concepts. But as this relates to audience reach, one of the things that has come up a lot recently is link foreign language and making sure that the audio that we're creating can really reach a wide variety. I mean it in audio, it's actually much easier than in other formats to do translation and to understand where exactly audiences are and create content for them in, in language appropriate ways. So Katie, you've done a lot of work on this, especially you mentioned before in Spanish, so I'd love to hear about your philosophy there. Um, and then Ellen, I'll get to you about Pfizer's global reach.
Katie
Absolutely. So when I'm looking at launching a new audio project, and that's coming from nasa, I really care deeply about who is the audience that we're not reaching, that we could be reaching with these stories and how can we, uh, work from that point, the audience perspective to go and build the product that will resonate with them. I remember a couple of years ago we had developed a mini series for Curious Universe that was all about the science, the launch, and the people behind the James Webb space telescope. And I, I collaborate a lot with the NASA and Espanol team. So NASA has a Spanish communications program with wonderfully talented communicators whose role it is to make sure Spanish speaking audiences can connect with the great work that NASA is doing. And we kicked around the idea of exploring a pilot episode in Spanish for the James Webb Space Telescope series, and it did so well.
Katie
And at the same time I was hearing from our partners. So another part of my role is that I connect with industry partners on, on creative. So, you know, apple Podcasts, Spotify, um, and I, I take a lot of value from their insights into what they think would be beneficial for, for their audiences. And I was hearing from folks that there was not a lot of Spanish content in the science category. So NASA is uniquely poised to come into that space, you know, and really bring, um, some very important storytelling and work and deliver that to Spanish speaking audiences. I think it's really important though, especially as we talk about AI and how we can kind of harness that, that we place a lot of focus not on translating English content into Spanish, but working with Spanish communicators on developing original content. Um, and so that's what we did with Un Universo Cosa Desa, uh, it's hosted by Noella Gonzalez, who's, uh, from Uruguay. She is an awesome communicator and we worked together on the strategy, but really it was on her and her team to execute and build something that would resonate with their core audiences. The show has done so well. It has topped science charts in many different countries around the world, and it's great to see that resonating with folks.
Ellen
So going behind the curtain a little bit, strategy is an interesting word, Shera
Ellen
In some cases we were finding some from countries like Columbia, they had a specific one for new parents. That's not something that we had ever considered, um, in our ranks, but because it's in the Spanish language, we thought there might be a market for it in the US and it's something that we're working on, possibly translating. And yes, you're kind of like, why would you translate Spanish into Spanish? But some of the medical terms, some of the directions that they're giving to parents or not, what we would give here in the us. So we need to have that kind of consistency. In other cases, we're looking at this as an opportunity to create more podcasts, more podcasts, always more podcasts, but in native language. Um, we are hoping to do Spanish language podcasts for cancer patients. There's a lot, you know, so much white space that we could cover about getting diagnosed, reducing stigmas, what you need to do to keep yourself and your families healthy. I mean, I'd love it to have a caregiver focus and I'm sort of going on about it here as a commitment to myself. So we have it here and we can come back and say, remember when you were sitting in Austin and you talked about that caregiver idea in Spanish? I think we should do it.
Shira
I love that
Katie
No, you did a fabulous job. Um, so I will say that our approach, it really varies across different shows. So I oversee our slate of podcast five, uh, active podcasts that NASA offers. Again, nasa.gov/podcast. That's where you can check 'em out. So an approach for NASA's curious universe is going to look a little different than the approach that the Houston we have a podcast team takes because of that target audience, right? Houston, we have a podcast is for the NASA super fan. If you listen to that show, you're watching NASA launches, you are reading about NASA on nasa.gov, you follow all of our social media accounts and you love the host Gary Jordan, who you'll see on NASA broadcast doing live commentary. Um, the approach for that show is gonna be different because they are building content for an audience that already knows what's going on at nasa.
Katie
Um, so you can start from that place with a show like NASA's Curious Universe, it's built with the first time space Explorer in mind. So we have to package things a little bit differently for that show. Um, a key part of our process is really looking at, you know, we're a seasonal show as well, Houston, we have a podcast releases every week. You should check it out if you don't already follow. Um, but for our seasonal shows, we're looking at what is it important for NASA to be communicating about in a calendar year. You know, what are the launches? What are the landings? What are the science results that are come going to be coming from the agency? We work very closely with digital communications leadership, um, to identify those opportunities, but I also wanna know what are those just plain funds? Sometimes I, I did get asked by a very senior communicator at NASA one time, you know, do you ever just get to do something that's just plain fun?
Katie
And I love to say yes, that just plain fun is a part of our process. I wanna know what will our audience really get from this episode? You know, so a lot of times it's human interest who has a really cool job at NASA that they don't get a, a spotlight on, who doesn't often get a chance to share their story with our traditional means of communication. Um, so it's a blend of those things. And then as we go a little bit deeper into that process, we're looking at, okay, this is the story we wanna tell now, how can NASA tell this story? And so we leverage unique access to locations, people, you know, going behind the scenes. A weird curious universe was, I'm proud to say the first podcast ever to feature microphone recorded sounds from the surface of Mars. Um, so that, those are the types of opportunities that we look for when we're building our content. And we're seeing time and time again that, you know, looking at our retention rates, people are sticking around until the credits, you know, they're on this journey with nasa. And so that's behind every, uh, episode that we create.
Shira
I love that like, unique location access is Mars, like, very cool.
Katie
Yes. Okay. Kristen, tell, tell me about yours.
Kristen
So that, that is tough to follow. We are on the other, I think end of the spectrum as far as how our podcast is created and how that works for us. So really, we started a podcast because I listened to lots of podcasts and I walked into my boss's office and said, Hey, I think this would be a great way to continue the conversation with the students that we're already interacting with. And he went, yeah, sure. Like, go figure that out now. So, um, so you know, it, it's, it's a very, um, it feels homemade. It, it, you know, I am often the host of the podcast, right? We have student associates that work in our department that, that have been hosts of our podcasts. So students sort of speaking to other students, which we actually think is really powerful. Um, and so we shape our seasons, our podcast seasons based on what we've heard from our learners, what we've heard from our undergraduate learners, what we've heard as far as questions from our high school learners.
Kristen
And then we really have this great opportunity to then reach out to our student associates that we work with, read, reach out to our staff and say, what are the stories that we want to hear? And what do we think our students want to hear? And then it becomes sort of a labor of love because somebody says, I'd really love to talk about fertility preservation and cancer. I'd really love to talk about nutrition and cancer. That's something that speaks to me, right? And so then we can go out and we're fortunate to be on a campus and in a community where this work is happening right now. So there is someone like a half block away that's doing this work in oncology and, and diet, right? And so we can kind of just like, make a little teams message or send an email and say, Hey, do you mind talking about this with our students for 25 minutes? Can we pick your brain? And I've never had someone that wasn't just beyond excited to say, absolutely, I would love to speak with younger students about the work that I do and sort of put demystify some of the work around what I do and what it means and clear some things up. And so that's really been our approach is, is it's been a labor of love and a, and a reason to stay in contact with our students and a way for us to connect to the work too. So it continues that conversation.
Ellen
Those are two very hard acts to follow, but I'll do my best. I talked about how we're trying to globalize our podcast strategy and one of the things that we look for in a new podcast is what niche are you hitting? One of the things that um, drives me a little bit batty is when we have a team come to us and they have a podcast idea, and I say, okay, who's the audience? And the answer is, well, anyone, anyone could listen to it. That is the worst thing that you can say to me. I wanna hear that it's this really small niche because then we know how to reach them, then we know how to have the conversation with them. But when we hear this is something that anybody could listen to, there are very few podcasts that everyone can listen to. I mean, that goes with any form of content.
Ellen
You want to hit a certain audience. So that's been really important for us to be able to come up with a defined niche that we know how to reach. Um, you know, when we started our first podcast, the antigen vaccine focused, you may be surprised to know it was before 2020. It was before anybody heard the words COVID-19 and Coronavirus. And it was a great journey that we went on to tell that story with Shera full disclosure. Um, and I think that's what made it so great. I mean, for me, the episodes that really hit home, you know, just to echo what Katie and Kristen have said are the ones that tell a story that might not have been told. You know, I can walk around the building and be inspired. I can't imagine being at UT or nasa. I can't even imagine like what it would be like to go through there and just meet rocket scientists and, you know, cancer researchers.
Ellen
But we have that opportunity at Pfizer and I can be standing in line complaining about the pizza in the cafeteria, and the guy next to me will say something like, yeah, I gotta get back to my project. Oh wait, what's your project? Those are the stories that I want to continue to tell, because the more we can demystify the work at Pfizer, the more you understand what we do. I like to say, you'll hate us less. If you know one person from Pfizer, reputationally, you'll hopefully understand the work we do and hate us less. Will you ever love us? Maybe, maybe some of you will, but at least we can get to the point of less hatred.
Shira
Ellen
Shoot For the stars, right?
Shira
Yeah, exactly. Um, so what I love about this constellation of people here is that from a creative perspective, you're really looking at the full spectrum of what goes into making a podcast and what the outcome might look like. So you could have something that's a little bit more homegrown, no less impactful, um, and something that is like really highly produced and has access to audio that, that the rest of us can't even fathom. And I think one of the things that Pfizer has done really well is done both. And I, I think that's important for global brands to think about from a reputational perspective of you as you said Ellen, but that really does impact the creative process. So one anecdote that I can share is, um, in the most recent season of science, we'll win about AI that we were talking about before. We wanted to create something that would be really creative and different, um, from an audio perspective.
Shira
And so every single episode actually started with a hypothetical situation. Imagine the world if this thing happened, like if you were affected or if you had antimicrobial resistance, um, or if you were a scientist in a lab and you had to figure out like, oh my God, people are dying because I can't get the drugs fast enough to, to help these patients who are being affected. But we told it like, close your eyes and imagine you're having a long day at work and you're on the subway and you hit your hand and you start, this thing starts to infect you. And it's told in this way that is like, at least creatively I thought was pushing the envelope quite significantly, especially for a brand like Pfizer, because doing things that are hypothetical is difficult from a, um, legal perspective. So actually, I know it might seem a little boring, but I think it's actually hugely important, especially for all the brands out there. If you, Ellen and you Katie, could talk about how you deal with confidentiality issues and how you deal with other potential hurdles internally to the creative process.
Ellen
We're talking about lawyers here now, right? That's that's coming up the Yeah, the lawyers, um, Pfizer operates in a regulated space. So everything that we put out externally needs to be reviewed sometimes by more than one lawyer, sometimes by a team of lawyers. Sometimes in the case of AI and antimicrobial resistance, many, many lawyers, um, it's a partnership that we get into. We very much wanna tell a lot of stories about what's coming up. I'm gonna stop there because I can't tell those stories a lot of times. And the reason is, if we gave away what we're doing, what we're working on, it could jeopardize getting a drug approved, getting a clinical trial, um, off the ground. Nobody wants to get a letter from the FDA to start their day. We also have to be careful about being promotional. We're excited about the work, but we can't make promises about what our products and medicines are going to do.
Ellen
So we don't, and we know this, our lawyers know this, and it's a big partnership. It's not, I I would never say it's an adversarial relationship. We work together to make sure that our content is, you know, medically reviewed legal and regulatory, and that it's not going to do no harm, is really our first instinct. And, um, we are usually reassured by knowing that the stories will be able to be told at some point. Maybe they can't be told today because we're not far enough along in the process. You know, we have avenues, you know, our investor content, you can see what's coming through our pipeline. There are definitely stories. I can't wait to tell, I can't wait to talk about, um, our products, our medicines for obesity. I think that's one area where we're going to have so much storytelling, we're gonna have the opportunity to reduce the shame that comes along with these products, but we're not there yet. So give us some time on those and just patience. It, it, it really is a virtue. It's not my favorite one, but we, we kind of have to go that way
Katie
At NASA audio. We do not have to get our scripts reviewed by lawyers. I I don't envy that, um, that aspect of your work. But I will say that we have so many safeguards in place when it comes to NASA's communication. So, um, first off, with NASA's curious universe, it was really important for us to have a host who is a NASA scientist. So Dr. Patty Boyd is a NASA astrophysicist, and she's also really psyched about being a communicator. You know, she wants to help share these stories. So it's great when you have, uh, a NASA expert who's a part of your editorial team and can kind of, you know, give a gut check when she needs. But, but just with the structure of NASA's communications, there are public affairs officers that are embedded in different, uh, thematic teams. So, you know, NASA's earth science has public affairs officers, astrophysics, astrophysics has different public affairs officers, and we're able to work with those teams from the very beginning when we start brainstorming.
Katie
I like to connect with those folks, bring them in on the conversation. They have things that, that are their priorities to speak about in a given year. We have our audience interests at, um, at heart, and it really is this delicate dance of going back and forth in the reviews process to to fine tune the language and figure out how we're gonna tell the story in a way that actually resonates with people. And ideally it will help you get your messaging across as well. And I think that that's something we've been able to do very well, but it, it also needs to be impactful so we can work on a story together, but if nobody listens it, it's not gonna pay off. So, um, we work a lot with these teams as we're building out episodes, my team does and they support Curious Universe, the full-time audio team based out of Goddard's Face Flight Center. We'll do table reads for scripts, uh, internal to our editorial team, and that's like our last tone check. I
Shira
Want an invite.
Katie
Um, you know, we'll
Kristen
I was just gonna say quickly, that partnership is so key. So when we, when we go into creating an episode, and admittedly it's very different than when these two ladies go into creating an episode. Um, again, very homegrown, but our expert is the expert, right? And so we walk into creating an episode saying, what is it that a 17-year-old should know about this? Right? And so we, it's very much a partnership from the start of how should we craft this and what should we say and not say, right? What makes sense? And then I often get a lot of pushback. Well, you know, your audience and I do, I work with lots of high school students and undergraduate students, so I do, but I think it is that, that back and forth, that conversation that's sort of whittling it down and talking about like, no, no, we really need to explain that acronym because, and what is the why, right?
Kristen
Um, so I, that is, that is the most fun I think about this work is that this is a creative process with the scientific community, with our clinical community, um, and with our, with our patients as well. And so that's a very delicate process that's different as well, right? You have to approach those episodes from a place of are they ready to talk about that, right? Like maybe they've just come, you know, on the other side of recovery or they're still in the middle of treatment, right? And so that dance and that partnership and making sure that our experts are the expert in telling that story that they want to tell, um, is really important.
Shira
I'm married to somebody who's, uh, an investor in the biotech space, and so he's surrounded by lots of scientists and they often talk about the search for meaning and truth and the aha moment, like when the experiment works or you see something beautiful for the first time or the breakthrough happens and there's a solve like that, that moment. And I think that is the moment that audio producers also yearn for is the, the aha, the making your listener feel. So I'd love if we could end on, if there's a moment in one of the episodes that you've made in the past several years, or even if it's not your episode, if you can't find that right now, something else that you've heard just in a podcast that's really made you feel. And if you could point to why you think that is, if it needs a why
Katie
Well, um, I love that you brought up this aha moment, and immediately I remembered a conversation that I had, um, with an astrophysicist. Her name is Aki Roberts. And uh, it was for an episode about the search for life out outside of earth beyond Earth, really cool, right? Um, and she said, you know, a lot of times it's not an aha moment, it's a, huh, that's weird. And that's where the curiosity begins. Like a huh, that's weird. And scientists are, they're working in teams, right? So this image that audiences have of like this lone scientist working alone in, in a lab coat, that's really not the reality for a lot of the science that's being done at nasa. Science is done by teams of people who identify that, huh, that's weird. This blip in the data that stands out. And we get to follow that curiosity with them.
Katie
And I think that's just so cool. It's just where else can you find that, you know, getting let in on these adventures with NASA scientists. So whenever we have a moment like that, that's where it's, I, I'm just so proud of the work that my team is doing. You know, I've got a great production team, Jacob Pinter and Christian Elliot who really get at the heart of those special moments that shine. And I think it is when you have an experience where you just feel connected, um, you have the chance to feel connected with someone like a NASA astronaut or a scientist and, and you realize, you know, to touch on what these ladies said earlier, these are real people, you know? And oftentimes we are speaking with folks at the height of their career, you know, they may have spent 30 years working on a mission and it just launched, and we get to grab them and hear from them. And I just think that's so cool. So those are my favorite episodes when we get to capture that moment and package it and share it with NASA fans across the world.
Kristen
I'll go next. Uh, so a special moment for me, and it, it may seem like a small moment, but it was certainly an aha moment for, okay, I think we're on the right track with this podcast. Like, I think we're doing something that will stick is, believe it or not, we, we had the idea for the podcast before the pandemic. We were supposed to shoot some of our first audio around this time, right around March 11th, like 2020. And then everything stopped, right? So I was recording the third episode from my bathroom with our translational research manager, which means she's working with people in bench research and then trying to get it over to the clinical side. And so there's this conversation and she's the person that helps kind of elicit that conversation. And she is recording the podcast from her bedroom closet and she's feeding her newborn.
Kristen
And we were talking about the myth of work life balance, right? And, and how um, how she was finding her way kind of in this moment, like the rest of us were, but she sort of stops and is is like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Can you hear Gwen eating? And I said, yes, yes we can. And I love it, right? And I think we were just having a conversation about how you balance sort of the work in science and your family life and how we're all getting through this. And I think it's important for our learners to know that you are feeding a baby while recording this podcast because that is your life. So you can still do this important work and feed your baby while you're recording a podcast. This is all possible. And so I think that's when it hit for me, when that baby sort of made that little cute baby noise and she freaked out about it, it was like, no, no, no, this is right where we should be. This is the work we should be doing for our audience in particular. So yeah,
Ellen
I have no cute babies, I'm sorry,
Ellen
What do you do? And he explained the art of creating new medicines. And I said, so you come up with a molecule and you're not positive what it's gonna do. It could be an anti-inflammatory, it could be, um, something to fight an infection. You don't know what it's gonna do. He goes, well, we have an idea, we have a hope, but it doesn't always work that way. And I thought, this is a story we have to tell and I have to get you and other scientists telling that story because if I'm fascinated by it, I'm hoping others are, I'm hoping this is new to other people. Hopefully not new to anybody, anybody who's actually in medicinal design. So we worked on what we called, um, behind the science, and you can find it pfizer.com behind the science. And there's a whole series of stories that we've told there, including a three part R mRNA Brace yourself.
Ellen
But the medicinal Design one was the first, and it went step by step with video audio of people who are working in this field, different graphics and animations explaining how the process goes. And to me, it was such a multimedia aha event that I thought someday I want these stories to be extracted and put into longer form content. Um, I still never take for granted the attention of our audience, the commitment of our audience, that they wanna spend that time with us, and, you know, experience things. That's something that I will never get over. And I'm grateful that we've had the opportunity to tell stories that way. So, you know, that was my kind of aha moment.
Shira
Well, I wanna thank you all so much for joining us today, and thank all of you for, for coming and listening. We also don't take you for granted. Um, and we're gonna stick around for questions if people have them. And, um, happy Monday. Thank you. Thanks so much.