Podcasting has become essential for communicating breakthroughs in science, offering an accessible and engaging platform to reach diverse audiences. This evolving medium fosters deeper connections by delivering trusted information in accessible and compelling ways. In this conversation, audio makers from Pfizer, Acast, and TED, discuss what it takes to stand out in the science podcast space, insights on strategy, and how they're working to shape the future of health communication.
Podcasting has become essential for communicating breakthroughs in science, offering an accessible and engaging platform to reach diverse audiences. This evolving medium fosters deeper connections by delivering trusted information in accessible and compelling ways. In this conversation, audio makers from Pfizer, Acast, and TED, discuss what it takes to stand out in the science podcast space, insights on strategy, and how they're working to shape the future of health communication.
Moderator
• Aaron Strout, Former CMO of Real Chemistry and Health Podcaster
Speakers
• Erica Santiago, Executive/Digital Communications & Podcast Strategy, Pfizer
• Veronika Taylor, SVP of Acast’s Creator Network
• Shoshana Ungerleider MD, Host and Producer of TED Health Podcast
This episode was recorded live in Austin, TX on Monday, March 10, as part of Pfizer’s takeover of the South by Southwest podcasting lounge.
Please fill out our short survey so we can get to know our listeners better: pfizer.com/podcastsurvey
Edie Allard:
Podcasting has become a crucial medium for storytelling and teaching on a wide range of topics–this is no different for science and health communication. There’s a growing audience of podcast listeners invested in this content for its intimate nature and ability to distill complex concepts in a fun, informative way…but what about the people who make these shows? Why have creatives and healthcare workers alike invested in podcasting?
On this special episode of Science Will Win, we’re sharing one of a series of conversations recorded live at the Pfizer podcasting lounge at South by Southwest.
This panel explores the role audio plays in storytelling and scientific communications. Aaron Strout, healthcare podcaster and former CMO of Real Chemistry, sat down with Pfizer’s Erica Santiago, Acast’s Veronika Taylor, and TED Health’s Shoshana Ungerleider, to discuss how they’re strategizing and innovating science podcasts that will stand the test of time.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Aaron Strout:
So I'm gonna start by introducing my panelists. I'm gonna give a little bit of a perfunctory intro and then we're gonna get into some fun stuff. And then we're gonna ask all of the questions. I know everyone here is dying to know about scientific and health podcasts, how they work, how you build an audience, how you build your show, et cetera. So, I'll start with, and you've heard their names already, but I'm Aaron Strout and I'm the former CMO of a company called Real Chemistry. And I am still the Real Chemistry healthcare podcast host. I've been doing podcasting for almost 20 years. I have a funny anecdote that I'm gonna share with you shortly, but yeah, I'm like one of the OGs, and then what we'll do is we'll start and move around the circle here.
Aaron Strout:
So Erica Santiago, who's our host today, she is the director of external comms and podcast strategy for Pfizer among many other things. But I was told that that was the nice tight title to stick with, in the middle here we have Veronika Taylor, who is the SVP of Acast’s Creator Network, and I think doing some research. I have a new podcast coming out. I may come and talk to you because
Veronika Taylor:
Please do.
Aaron Strout:
I love your offerings. They have, and I wrote down originally 47,000. She's like, no, 147,000. I'm like, that's a big difference. That's three times as much. They're a global platform connecting podcasters, audiences and advertisers, which I know my colleague J Pags and I were talking about yesterday. It's one of the questions people have, like, how do I build an audience? Like I've got an idea, but I don't know how to do it and how do I monetize it, right?
Aaron Strout:
So it's a critical service and I think we learned recently that you, who we'll talk about in a sec, just joined that network. So last but not least, we have Shoshana Ungerleider, MD. She is, and I wanted to make sure I gave her proper credit 'cause she earned this. She is a board certified internal medicine physician. So always good to have someone that actually does this as part of their living, from a doctor perspective. And she is the host and producer of the TED Health Podcast. And I would encourage you, and you know, we'll have an opportunity to talk more about this, but the TED Health podcast and the Science Will Win podcast sponsored by Pfizer are both amazing shows. So, because of the fact that it's early morning and anyone of you that know me know that I like to have a little bit of fun, engage the audience, make it an enjoyable experience and a learning experience for you. So we've done the perfunctory introduction. I wanna ask each of my panelists here to give us a little bit of an insight into what their workday looks like. And then we'll do a couple of fun questions. So we're gonna start with what does a day in the life look like for my panelists? So Shoshana, why don't we start with you.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
So I don't have a typical day. I expected as an internist to practice medicine full-time. And that never really happened. So I still do telehealth primary care., and then on any given day I am running a nonprofit called End Well, focused on making the end of life a part of life, I also host and produce my own podcast called Before We Go, and then, you know, recording forTED. And then I also do some science journalism, so writing and television as well. So it—it just is a fun and interesting busy life.
Aaron Strout:
So thank you for sharing that. What I'll tell you is, very early in the morning I woke up 'cause I had too much caffeine yesterday. And so I was listening to some of the TED Health podcast as background, and you wanna talk about someone that has a melodious voice. I was listening to it and thinking, oh, I could listen to this all day and help. Not that—not that the content's boring, but it would soothe me back to sleep.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Oh, good.
Aaron Strout:
So—one more reason to listen to that. Veronika, why don't we move on to you next.
Veronika Taylor:
Yeah, thanks. So Acast is a very global company. So I have teams on the ground in 14 different markets. So my mornings are usually full of internal meetings with the European teams. Sometimes I catch the Australians very, very early or very, very late, and in the afternoon I usually get more time when I'm on U.S. time zones to talk to podcasters here. So my teams at Acast you mentioned we're a monetization platform and a tech platform, but I'm on the content side. So my teams work on content acquisition and audience development. So working very closely with our podcasters, including TED Health and the Pfizer podcast,, and many other amazing podcasters. We work very, very closely on best practices, how they can better position themselves for audience development and also monetization. So all sorts of conversations within that rubric, I would say.
Aaron Strout:
Awesome. Well thank you. Yeah. And again, I love that you're doing that. And then last but not least, Erica, I think you wear like six different hats, but what does a day in life look like for you? Wearing all those different hats?
Erica Santiago:
Yes, so our team focuses a lot on our digital communications. So we manage all of our social media properties at Pfizer, our digital channels, websites, and of course podcasts, which is my bread and butter, my favorite part of my day. But, we're always just trying to find different and unique ways of telling our stories from Pfizer on these various channels.
Aaron Strout:
Well that's awesome and thank you. And just another little nod to that. So she's one of the brains behind the Science Will Win podcast and I was also listening to some of those last night just to sort of study up. And my good friend Jeremiah Owyang is the host of this season. And funny story, and this will date me, not that I don't look like I'm 25, but, I was actually at a conference called the Web 2.0 Conference. Has anyone ever been or heard of the Web two oh conference? So 2006, this is like early days of social media, sort of midway through the digital. I was at this conference and this guy's in front of me with a mic. Turns out it's Jeremiah Owyang. And so I've known him for a long time, so it was fun to hear him.
Aaron Strout:
He sounds way more polished today than he did back in 2006. But it's just one of these small worlds, like worlds colliding kind of things. So I promise you that we have a little bit of fun getting started today to help get the juices going. So one thing I always like to ask, and I did a podcast here last year for some of you may have seen it with the CEO of ASCO, the CEO of the American Cancer Society, and the president of innovation at City of Hope. And so I was like fascinated to listen to these amazing people. So I'm equally fascinated today. What is one thing, and Ellen gave me some warnings, but I didn't share that with the group here. What is one thing people don't know about you that you're willing to share with this audience and hundreds of thousands of other listeners eventually? So Erica, why don't we start with you?
Erica Santiago:
Fabulous .
Aaron Strout:
I did let them know in advance too, so I didn't catch them on the spot.
Erica Santiago:
Yeah. I guess one thing that a lot of people probably don't know is that I think for the last eight years I've been practicing aerial yoga and in my office I have an aerial hammock, so it's also half office, half exercise room. So all of my zooms and team calls, there's always this like hammock hanging behind me. So a lot of people are probably wondering what the heck that is. And now, you know, .
Aaron Strout:
Well that's awesome and thank you. And you know, clearly that's a healthy way to stay fit for your all your day-to-day activities. Veronika, how about you?
Veronika Taylor:
This isn't totally a secret, but I am very, very afraid of birds, like weirdly irrationally afraid of birds. If it's like, even like pigeons, I live in New York City, not a great place to live if you're afraid of pigeons, but anything bigger than a pigeon, I will go way outta my way to avoid. I don't know why.
Aaron Strout:
So that's a bummer 'cause I was planning a field trip to go do a screening of the movie The Birds by Alfred Hitchcock.
Veronika Taylor:
Yeah. I will not be joining.
Aaron Strout:
We're not gonna do that. Well thank you for sharing that. And then Shoshana, how about you?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
I think I've talked about this maybe, but I love singing karaoke so, that's something I do.
Aaron Strout:
Well that's awesome. We'll skip the showing you the birds and maybe we'll do a little karaoke later and I'll share one just because I think this is sort of funny and it's self-deprecating. But I told you I started doing podcasting back in 2006. The second podcast I ever landed was this guy named Michael Arrington. He started a blog called TechCrunch. And it was like I had no business doing an interview with Michael Arrington back then. We get on the phone because that was how we were gonna do it. We got about 60 seconds and he said, Aaron, can we just stop for a second? I was like, okay. He's like, you sound really nervous and I just wanna give you a tip. He's like, I'm just a guy. You're just a guy. Let's just have a conversation and I just want you to relax.
Aaron Strout:
And I was like, you know what? Thank you. And so almost 20 years later, I still remember that very embarrassing, but very helpful moment. And so I think that's probably something that none of you know about me. I would like to shift gears into the topic at hand, which is podcasting, health and science, podcasting. So one of the things I do want to know, and we'll do a serious, and a sort of fun version of this is I'd like to ask my panelists what is their favorite science or health podcast that they listen to? And then of course, because we all have our guilty pleasure podcast, the one that we don't really want to admit to anyone, or maybe it's just a fun playful one that we do listen to, but it's not like the serious business podcast. So Veronika, why don't we start with you on that one.
Veronika Taylor:
I love this question. I ask every single podcaster who comes to us who wants to join Acast this very question. It's a good conversation starter. My favorite more serious science podcast, I would say is called The Nature Podcast. And it's from the Nature journal. I think they could use a rebrand, which I will work on with them because while the journal is called Nature, the podcast covers all types of science, lots of AI recently, like all science podcasts. But I compare it a little bit. If anyone listens to the Economists’, The Intelligence, which is their daily news podcast, it has a very similar tone. it's very well researched, like I trust everything I hear there. And so that's my go-to for like, if I want just like good solid, obviously I'm not gonna mention yours, but I do listen to yours too.
Veronika Taylor:
And then guilty pleasure. I don't feel that guilty about this, but it's still in the health and wellness space, is a show called Forever35, which has been with us for many, many years. They are two friends who their tagline is, “we're not experts, we're just two friends who like to talk about serums.” But basically it's a self-care podcast for women in their thirties and forties and beyond or before any age really, and they get into all sorts of topics that touch on health and wellness, but are not like seriously in that LA lane. And I really like, that's my kind of feel good podcast that I work into the week.
Aaron Strout:
Well, that's great and I appreciate that that is a question that you ask your creators because it's a germane one, right? Yeah. You wanna know like what lights them up in the morning. Erica, how about you? Other than the Science Will Win podcast, of course,
Erica Santiago:
Of course. I—for science specifically, I really geek out over anything NASA does. Last year we were also here and had her on one of our panels and she just talked about how they get their podcast done and it was really amazing. So I geek out over that. And anything that could really take me off of Earth for a couple days, especially now and into a different Galaxy makes me, yeah, right up my alley. Healthcare wise, I have a three-year-old at home and he's always coming home with a different illness every week, if you know, if you've ever sent your kids off to daycare, and there's this pediatrician that I follow on Instagram, shout out to Dr. Mona., and she has also has a really good podcast called Peds Doc Talk. And every week she's talking about these different infections and kind of how you can deal with it and not freak out and it's been a really nice lifeline to talk—to hear about it. And then guilty pleasure is anything real Housewives or Bravo related, Bravo adjacent. I soak it all in.
Aaron Strout:
So, that's the perfect answer by the way. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And one funny anecdote, so my sister and her family live here. I went to breakfast with them yesterday and my youngest nephew, who I believe is eight, don't quote me on that, loves NASA. And one of the topics of breakfast yesterday very early came up was one of the female astronauts that is in the Space station who got stuck there for six months is coming home. And they were very excited about that and I know that because of them. So I'm a little bit of a NASA nerd as well. Shoshana, how about you?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah, so on the nerdy side, I really love the Osterholm Update, which comes out of the University of Minnesota. Mike Osterholm is a epidemiologist and I just find that information about infectious disease stuff is—especially during the pandemic and now with everything else going on—really, really helpful. He does a great job and then it comes out like every week or every other week, I think, and honestly, I don't have like a real guilty pleasure one. I I do love Anderson Cooper's podcast. All There Is that CNN does, it's about grief and finding meaning in life. So that's not so fun all the time, but it actually, you know, helps to have that reminder from time to time that we're all mortal.
Aaron Strout:
. We are all mortal and it's okay. It's the main goal is like we want people to know that we're human beings and we're not robots that just listen to science and health podcasts all the time or make them or host them. I'm gonna share mine and one I'm gonna nod to someone in the audience, and that is a woman that I did a panel with last year on podcasting, Dr. Bayo, and it's called Beyond Clinical Walls. That's her podcast that I love to listen to. It's fascinating. And then my fun one is, any Office fans here, raise your hand if you've ever watched The Office or maybe still watch The Office. So, two of the characters, Pam and Angela decided that they were going to, I think it was 10 years later, maybe probably 20 years later, do a podcast and dissect every episode.
Aaron Strout:
And what I will tell you is similar to like the two ladies that aren't really experts, great actresses or actors, they didn't really know what they were doing with the podcast, so to listen to the evolution of them go from the first episode until 20 or 30 and just really start to hit their rhythm and then all of a sudden the advertisers start to come. So that was my guilty pleasure. I do wanna talk a little bit about some data, and I'm gonna read this just so I don't screw this up. And I was a little surprised by these numbers and thanks to the team for digging it up. But according to Pew Research Center, it showed that 40% of U.S. podcasts, listeners regularly stream podcasts about science and tech. So that was a little bit of a, wow, I'm surprised that so many people do that. And then 27% regularly listen to podcasts about health and fitness. I was a little less surprised about that. So it's clear that audiences are invested in this medium, but I wanna know why you all have invested in podcasting. 'Cause it's one of those questions, I think we get asked a lot less now than we did maybe four or five years ago. But I wanna know, what message are you trying to get across with your shows and why are you saying it with podcasts specifically? So, Shoshana, why don't we start with you.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
So I think unlike social media, right, where information is often really bite-sized, lacks context, podcasting allows for more in depth and, and really nuanced exploration of topics. Which I think is important when we're talking about more complex scientific information that we want a general audience to understand. Our goal is to, well, one of our goals is to demystify science and medicine, right? So breaking down complex health topics so that anyone, whether they have a science background or not, can really understand and apply it to their lives. I think a lot of what we focus on is also bridging the gaps between research and real life because science isn't just about discoveries in a lab. It impacts how we live, how we age, how we go about our day-to-day lives, taking care of ourselves and, and then also society. And so why podcasts? I think I really like to think about podcasts as meeting people where they are. I think the intimacy of audio allows for deeper engagement and listeners feel like they're part of a conversation, rather than being lectured to. And I really love that people consume podcasts while going about their lives, whether they're driving or exercising or cooking. I know I do. And it makes it easier to kind of integrate information into their lives.
Aaron Strout:
Well, thank you. And I think in general we love to have that personality. We know about like Neil deGrasse Tyson or Bill Nye, The Science Guy, having that person that you do feel like you trust and you can go to when you listen to their voice. And it just sort of instills that like, oh, okay, I'm in a safe space and I know that I can trust this. And I think we'll talk a little bit about the trust piece. I know Veronika, you brought it up earlier. Why don't we move over to you. Obviously you're part of the network and you are the fuel behind all of these, but you know, why did you join? Why are you doing what you're doing? Why is Acast doing this clearly successfully to the tune of almost 150,000 shows on your platform?
Veronika Taylor:
Yeah, well, at the side of the work that I do is like invite only. So I'm constantly talking to podcasters who we think would be a good addition to our creator network, which is kind of our most premium level of shows. So we look a lot at where we think the hosts are trustworthy, where we think the content is premium. We work with a lot of big media companies where that's kind of inherent within it, but tons of independence as well. And actually those stats don't surprise me that much. I think that the podcasting industry has really gone through an interesting evolution over the last 10 years where, you know, when it started it was chat shows, it was your, the two bros in the basement talking about whatever. And those shows are still really popular, obviously, and, and around. But I think as the industry has grown up and the medium has grown up, you're seeing a lot more kind of like benefit focused shows.
Veronika Taylor:
And I think that's where science and tech and health and fitness really come in. Like people, you know, there are so many choices out there. You only have so many hours in the day. If you're choosing where to spend your media consumption hours, you're gonna pick something that's going to help you improve, make you a better, you, you know, help you find whatever goals you're trying to hit. And I think that's where this kind of genre of podcasting has really fallen into its own. Someone said, “oh, science podcast, what, how niche?” And I was like, why is that niche, like everyone should care about this topic? Like, it's the opposite of niche in my opinion. But, yeah, I think it's definitely a booming part of the industry and it makes a lot of sense, I think, for where we are in podcasting.
Aaron Strout:
So I think part of what Veronika's telling you too is that she has a very broad purview over a lot of really good podcasts. So if you ever have any questions about who's doing what trends, I know I'm making a note to reach out to you. I do LinkedIn articles from time to time, so you're gonna be a resource probably all three of you down the road. . So, Erica, how about you?
Erica Santiago:
Yeah, I re—everything that they just said is, is pretty spot on. So at Pfizer, our main mission is to create breakthroughs that change patients' lives. And a lot of what my team is tasked with is communicating the science and the information behind those breakthroughs and a lot of those topics can be very complex if we're breaking down how a vaccine works, how AI can help accelerate drug discovery. It's really hard to do that in a 30 second, two minute, five minute video. Videos are great, but sometimes we like to go a little bit deeper with the storytelling and audio really lends itself to that. And as you just said, 40% are listening to science content, so that's only gonna be keeping, you know, increasing year over year. So we just wanna be where the people are and reach them in all different types of formats.
Aaron Strout:
Well, I'm gonna stay with you on that topic because you mentioned the draw of the science related podcast specifically is their ability to break down this or distill this complex information in an accessible manner, right? Because we all know that no one likes to be talked to, we like to be spoken with, right? We want someone to be able to walk us through maybe sometimes like we're a fifth grader, so it also requires the trust of the listeners. And so one of the things I wanna ask you, and I'll start with you Erica, is as companies, Pfizer andTED, how do you, with distinct brand identities and legacies among consumers, how do you leverage brand identity in your shows to build trust among audiences?
Erica Santiago:
Yeah. So Pfizer has been around for over 175 years now. And, I read a stat or we work on a lot of our reputation stats, and right now Pfizer has about 85% brand awareness in the U.S. So it's a huge advantage. We can take those associations and that awareness and the associations with it and connect really on an emotional level. And it, it really gives a lot of credibility to put Pfizer on our podcast brand and on our—in our network without, you know, we have Science Will Win, but there's also a slew of other podcasts that we have underneath our umbrella as well. So we take that very seriously and we wanna make sure we are giving you a lot of credible and realistic and a lot of resourceful information, but we also know that you don't want to hear a podcast just solely about Pfizer.
Erica Santiago:
You don't want to hear Pfizer talking to Pfizer, just us talking about us to you, to the audience. So we really like to make sure that we cast a really wide net and bring in outside experts, people that are in the field, patients, patients and their stories, patient advocates, so that you're really getting the full 360 view of the certain topic that we hope to relay to you, and we don't wanna solely talk about us, we wanna talk about infectious diseases, illnesses, vaccines, giving you the one-on-one and arming you with this information, in a credible and reliable way.
Aaron Strout:
Well, it's one of the reasons why I love that you picked Jeremiah Owyang to do this season. So Jeremiah is a industry analyst. He worked at Forrester for a while. And one of the questions just to make this sort of germane to all of us, I get asked by people all the time, like, okay, we wanna do a podcast. Who should do it? Should it be someone from our company? Should it be someone from outside? And my answer is like, well, you tell me, like, do you have someone from your company that is a thought leader or is a good interviewer that's credible and there's no right answer. But I think, you know, and to your point, you didn't want it to be an infomercial about Pfizer. One way to keep that at arm length was to bring in outside hosts. And I think that's really helpful in terms of having someone that can explain the science and interview these amazing guests. Yeah. Shoshana, how about you?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah, so just like on the TED stage, we make every TED Health episode grounded in sort of insights from experts, solid research and then, and then we focus on real world takeaways. I think trust isn't just about the facts, you know, it's, as you said, it's about connection, so I really try to bring, as a host, curiosity and and compassion to every conversation. You know, we tackle big, sometimes tough topics like end of life care because that's what I care a lot about and implicit bias in, in medicine. We do it with honesty and with care. And I always aim to empower listeners with information that they can actually use. And I know we'll talk more about that. You know, at the end of the day I love TED we're never pushing an agenda. We're all about fostering informed decision making. So I think if we can spark curiosity, if we can build understanding and, and help people feel more confident in their own health journeys, then we're doing something meaningful. And I, you know, that's why I became a doctor. And so that, that's really what matters most to me.
Aaron Strout:
So I wanna do a quick little double click, if you don't mind. And I'm gonna put you on the spot. Sure. You'll know 'cause you did the show. So as I was doing my research, the last podcast, or at least the last one that came up for me on the TED Health podcast was about vampires. And when I saw that, I thought to myself, wow, how are they going to connect vampires to science and health? And I was actually pleasantly surprised at how nicely that came together. Can you just give us like 30 seconds on that episode and what the connection was so that everyone here will want to go out and make sure that they listen to that if they—
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah, of course. So I think that was a TED Ed lessons sometimes and we'll get in more to this, but, you know, TED Health features TED Talk content or TED Ed lessons, this particular one, I think we recorded it a while back, but was talking about kind of the historical context of vampires and why this, you know, mythology around sharp teeth and drinking blood and not being able to go out in the sun and being sort of allergic to garlic, it turns out that that was actually rooted in more like old world ideas of what early understanding of science, maybe I would say.
Aaron Strout:
Well, as a hint, one of it was related to rabies, right?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Oh yeah.
Aaron Strout:
Because there was a huge rabies outbreak, and so people would get bitten by bats or other animals. They would not wanna look at the light. 'Cause it, you know, light, it makes your eyes more sensitive. They would be averse to strong smells like garlic and they would have these crazy sort of violent outbreaks and so—
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Advanced rabies.
Aaron Strout:
That’s right.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yes. Exactly.
Aaron Strout:
And so this is why, and you mentioned also when people would die, they would go and dig them up sometimes for various reasons and find out lo and behold their nails and their hair and their teeth would continue to grow. And so it's like, ah, a vampire. 'Cause that's the simple explanation.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yes.
Aaron Strout:
I was just like, I just thought that was brilliant that you all were able to bring that around and bring that full circle.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Thank you.
Aaron Strout:
So that was great. Yeah. So anyway, Veronika, the next one is for you. Okay. So we've talked about the fact that podcasts tend to foster a stronger listener-host rapport than other forms of media, which is one of the benefits of it. So as someone that works with the talent, how do you work to market Acast’s health and science shows? And then because you do this as part of your job, choose these creator, these creators in a way that boosts not only the listener-host relationship, but the overall audience engagement.
Veronika Taylor:
Yeah, great question. We touched a little bit about on this earlier, but one of the things that I think about a lot is like how we can bring trustworthy shows onto our network, particularly because that's what audiences tend to connect with best and also what advertisers are looking for particularly in this space. So yeah, we think a lot about, you know, working with companies that are as esteemed as Pfizer and TED, where you know, you're going to get quality content that you can trust. And if I could pick amongst a bunch of podcasts, like that's one of the first things that I'm gonna look for. You just know you're gonna get quality. I, the one thing that is keeping me up at night in this industry, and I'm not even being dramatic, like I really do kind of worry about this is how podcasting can so quickly turn into social media.
Veronika Taylor:
Because, you know, it is, it's both a blessing and a curse. It's a beautiful part of the industry that there are a lot of podcasts out there and there are a lot of, there's not like a police state, like keeping an eye on them, right? So even within our own platform, you know, we have, people can sign up and use our hosting technology no matter what. You don't have to talk to me like you can just use it. And those shows are there. And we're, you know, we've got community guidelines and we're vaguely aware of what's on there. We've had issues in the past with, particularly when the anti-VAX stuff was getting outta control where we've had to ask podcasters to leave or stop monetizing their content. But for the most part, unless you're in the Creator Network where someone from my team has invited you on and we know that you're listening to the shows all the time, like there could be stuff happening on those shows that I don't feel good about going out into the world. And that really like, makes me nervous as someone in this space. And I think, you know, we're not alone at Acast like all the, the podcast hosting platforms operate in this way. So it's, it's interesting 'cause it's like both not social media because you can get more in depth, but it has some of the same pitfalls that social media can have. And it makes me very nervous and it's why I like working with companies like these two . So.
Aaron Strout:
Well, that's a good point. And it's something I don't think I've thought as much as I probably should about because you do sort of feel like, well it's just out there and it's regulated, but it's not really, it is a bit of the wild west, right?
Veronika Taylor:
It is.
Aaron Strout:
And I guess, do you get to ever have those uncomfortable conversations like you personally to say, “it's not me, it's you and you have to go?” Yeah.
Veronika Taylor:
Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Or just, “we don't want you on in the first place. Sorry.” ,
Aaron Strout:
You're just not good anymore, but yeah, thank you.
Veronika Taylor:
Find someone else. Yeah.
Aaron Strout:
Well I don't envy you on that one. Shoshana, how about you? So as a host, what do you do to foster that relationship between the host and the guest on your, you know, you have, like I said, you have such a nice warm sense about you, but I'm sure you have some tricks that you use as well, both on the TED and your own podcast.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah. You know, I think for me, podcasting is all about connection. You're gonna hear that over and over with this conversation. I don't see it as just delivering information. I really think of listeners as part of the conversation. So it's this very—audio is this very intimate medium and I have the privilege of being invited into people's days, into their lives, right? And so I try to speak in a way that feels personal. I always joke that I'm good at, better at podcasting than being a doctor 'cause I'm not that smart. You know? So I just
Aaron Strout:
I somehow don't believe that.
Veronika Taylor:
Me neither.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
I don't know. But, you know, I think of it like we're sitting down and having coffee and unpacking some of these big, you know, health and science topics together. And I think in general, science and health can often feel overwhelming for people, even for a doctor. And I'm certainly not an expert in all of the content that we share on the show. So I ask the questions that I, that I think my listeners, you know, wanna have answered and I'm not afraid to say to a scientist, “wait, what does that, what does that really mean?” 'Cause I think if I need clarification then, you know, chances are they do too. So I see this as we're, we're sort of all learning together. And I, and hopefully that comes through in the show, .
Aaron Strout:
Well, it definitely does, at least the ones that I've listened to. I do wanna drill down on something that's a little bit tricky when we come to this particular topic of science and health. And that is we have this intimacy, I think we're seeing up here. I wanna be casual and I wanna be fun, but at the same time I realize like we have to stick to a little bit of a script. And so Erica, I'm gonna start with you. If you're thinking about how you're bringing the creativity and casualness of the show so that it feels engaging, intimate, but balancing that with the educational and fact-based nature of the content, how do you go about finding or striking that balance?
Erica Santiago:
That's a great question. And also trying to not look stiff , while I have to be really close to this microphone, , speaking of casual, yeah, I mean, it's a question that we have going into every season. We're thinking about how can we tell this story? How are we going to tell it in a unique and engaging way that people will actually wanna stick around and listen to the full episode and not drop off after like 90 seconds. And I think, you know, you mentioned Jeremiah a lot. A lot of it does have to do with finding the right host who has the right tone and the right pace to really bring in the listeners and make you feel like really immersed with the season. So a lot of our season is narrative style. It isn't interview based. It isn't just us having a conversation like we are right now. So we're really threading a narrative throughout the whole season, so we get to have a little bit of fun. I see, I'm looking at my producer Edie over there that—the mastermind .
Aaron Strout:
Getting the hard sign back for those just listening.
Erica Santiago:
So we get to play around with it. And I think a really great example of doing this. So our last season of Science Will Win, we really dig into the AI topic and obviously a lot of people talk about AI. How can we make it a little bit different, that people haven't listened to before? So we decided to open every episode with a hypothetical scenario. And this time it was a hypothetical pandemic, not to trigger anyone, but it was about an antimicrobial superbug that like swept the nation.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
That's real .
Erica Santiago:
It is real.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Not hypothetical.
Erica Santiago:
It is real, but—
Aaron Strout:
I think that's called art imitating nature right, or the other way around.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
There we go.
Erica Santiago:
It's real. Yes, it's very real. And that's, it is what the whole season is about. It was about antimicrobial resistance and, you know, the rise of this public health threat, this very real threat to the world. And we opened it up with these scenarios of really kind of taking you into this character that he was on his way to work and this person fell, cut their hand on their way to work. They didn't think it was a big deal. And then it really turned into a really serious infection that was life threatening. And throughout the episode we would talk about how AI can really help fight, stop that super bug in the future.
Erica Santiago:
But we take you across the series and every episode that story progresses and we really had a lot of fun with the sound design and the sound effects really immersing you into that episode that like you were that person, you were in that train, you were the one that fell, you felt like you were in that hospital, you were smelling the blood, and we wanted it to a really intimate experience. And something that we've never done really before at Pfizer was, it was a really creative exercise that was completely different, and I think was really interesting. So, but it also had the educational nature as well.
Aaron Strout:
Well you helped me out on this one 'cause I know we're gonna end up running tight on time at the end here. 'Cause one of the other things I wanted to know as an example of, and I think you gave a really good example. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna bop over to you Shoshana, and I'm gonna probably skip you on this one, Veronika, and then we'll keep going. But why don't you tell us, like, how do you find that balance and is there a particular example that you've done where you're like, yeah, we kind of nailed it on balancing the creativity and engagement, but balancing that with the factual and educational component?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah. So, you know, I do think about every episode as a discussion with a friend. That's sort of how I frame it. And let's be honest, you know, a little humor and some real world examples can, can go a long way in those kinds of conversations. The idea, right, is just making science engaging without losing its accuracy or getting too far off into the weeds about something. I think, you know for us, facts and evidence are always the foundation, right? But human beings connect with stories and emotions, which hopefully makes them stick. And so, when somebody feels something, they remember it, I think for the most part. And, and it, if we can make science not just informative, but also memorable and then meaningful for people, I think we've done our job right.
Aaron Strout:
Awesome. And then an example of one that you think is particularly good?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah.
Aaron Strout:
You're hoping I didn't do the drill down on that one.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
No, no, no. I just forgot. Thank you for reminding me.
Aaron Strout:
That's why I'm reminding you.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
We did an episode I think last year and it was really, it was a personal one. So, when my dad was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer, I learned that I carry a BRCA mutation, the BRCA and so really that episode was talking about genetics, cancer risk, encouraging people to think about their own risks, learn about genetic testing and screening. You know, all things that I think can feel pretty overwhelming when they're not explained in a way that kind of grounds it and connects with people. So I walk through kind of the emotional side of things and then it was a really nice segue because I ended up doing my own podcast Before We Go, which came out at the end of last year. And we sort of primed the TED Health audience and we did some feed drops, which I'm so grateful to TED for doing, where we got to share my story in depth, which went into much more about mortality and finding meaning, and then, you know, my why in terms of going into medicine and then in that journey.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
So I think, you know, that that's the power of science storytelling when it's, when it's done right. I think when, when facts and experiences can come together in a way that kind of educates people. So they're iinformed, but then they're also hopefully empowered to make good decisions for themselves.
Aaron Strout:
Well, I'm gonna take a sec to give you a pro tip for any hosts out there. So thank you for sharing that story. And I know one of the things I did early days as a host is you're so focused on asking your next question, you'll do a throwaway, like, okay, thank you. Like, let's move on to the next one. So that is a very personal story you just shared. I am so sorry. That you, your dad was stage four and I'm sorry that you are a carrier of that. So I want to be empathetic to what you just shared. That's very important. And it is one of those things and it's why deep listening, which is not the easiest skill. I've had to do this literally 500 times to even start to get to this place, and I'm sure that you do that, but thank you for sharing that very personal story with us.
Aaron Strout:
So Veronika, this is a good one for you because this is something I also get asked. You have someone, either it's the, “Hey, I have a CEO and he wants to, or she wants to do a podcast, like, let's go”, or you have someone that's got a great idea and you have to sit down and say to them, “have you thought through what the overall strategy is behind your content? How do you make this not just a one and done show? How do you think through this?” So. how do you work as someone that recruits the creators and works with 'em closely, how do you advise them through the journey of these maybe sometimes nebulous ideas to create a full-fledged show that's got a story arc to it or at least has the right through line to it with a clear purpose?
Veronika Taylor:
Great question. And yeah, a lot of podcasters come with fantastic ideas and no idea how to shape it into an actual show that has legs. We tend to work with shows that are always on weekly for the most part, because they do really well with advertisers for the most part, but also, you know, it's good to build up that audience. So having, really very regular cadence is super important. So I spend a lot of time with new podcasters talking through what is your cadence plan? How are you actually gonna format the episodes? Like, you'd be shocked by how little some people think through that. I have a background in magazine journalism and I like to think about podcasting in a very similar way that you would think about how you put together a magazine, right? You've got some shorter features up front, you get some longer reads in the middle, and you've got some great short franchises in the back.
Veronika Taylor:
That's a really nice way to put together an interview style podcast. So it's not just like, Hey, today I'm gonna interview, and then you get into it and then you're done. Like, you know, think through it. Have a format that allows you to stick with it longer. Generally, I think it's really hard if you're doing an interview style podcast to book guest week after week after week and keep it fresh. There's been a lot written about recently, Tim Ferriss had a big article about how I'm done with guests, just done. So I think thinking through your format, thinking through your competitive space, so like what are other shows that you would like to compare yourself to, or be like, or not be like, is a really helpful exercise. And then yeah, really charting out many episodes, not just one before you get going, I think is really critical as well.
Aaron Strout:
Yeah, and I know personally as someone that has hosted a lot, the other thing I've always tried to do is I try to find sort of my own story arc so I kind of know where I'm gonna start and where I'm gonna end up. I do vary the questions because depending on your guests, they're not all gonna be germane questions., but it is a critical piece to really think that through. And I think it's where having a partner, like Acast or a producer that you know, can help you really sort of stay on track is critical. Now Erica, I'm gonna shift over to you because I think you touched on this before, but you all have done I think four seasons and I'm, I'm sorry to keep harping on, the Science Will Win, but I know it's award-winning and it's the one I'm most familiar with. But in general, for all of the podcasts, what do you do? What's the process for choosing a topic for a season or episode and, you know, making sure that you have the right stakeholders involved and you know, who are those stakeholders that you bring to the table?
Erica Santiago:
Yeah, you nailed a lot of it. We have a lot of conversations around Pfizer with a lot of different of our area—a lot of the different areas, a lot of the different therapeutic areas, and we sit down with them and have the conversation exactly like, “what is your goal? What is your initiative? What are you hoping to achieve this year or beyond and does that align with our comms and audio strategy?” And where is that synergy that makes sense? And if it aligns, doesn't make sense to put it in audio format, doesn't make sense to create a podcast series from it.” And a lot of the time it actually isn't. So we have a lot of conversations where people might be pitching us ideas that they do want to turn into audio and we have to be completely honest with them and ourselves of saying, this really doesn't make sense to put in audio format as much as everyone.
Erica Santiago:
And it seems that everyone has a podcast and there's so many out there, so we have those tough conversations and we say, “yeah, I don't, I don't think this might, this might not be a fit, but we do have these alternative channels that might make sense.” But I think just like at the end of the day, we're always having patience on our mind and just trying to like, how can we serve the people that need our medicines the greatest at the end of the day, and how can we tell those stories through our audio format? And if that all aligns, we will keep making great seasons.
Aaron Strout:
So I wanna stop for a second point out what Erica just said. So I think a lot of times, again, I mentioned the CEO that has, you know, she or he has this great idea, they don't really think about who the audience is, they don't really think about sort of what the strategy is. And I would say arguably one of probably the three most important things is who is your audience that you are trying to target? And so in your case, patients, which is so critically important for anyone works in the healthcare or science field, like really understanding what does it mean to them. And I'm gonna stay with you. And then Shoshana, we're gonna bounce over to you for a different question, but season four is specifically of Science Will Win about AI technology surprise,, apparently a hot topic, especially here. And this one talks specifically about data, hardware, software, the three major components and how they've combined to revolutionize the drug discovery and design process. So let's sort of think about what has been the most exciting, the good, and then the challenging aspect of taking on this topic this season.
Erica Santiago:
Yeah. When you think of data, hardware and software, you're really thinking exciting. No, but that was—
Aaron Strout:
Patients love those things.
Erica Santiago:
But that was our challenge, right? So, we were tasked with the season that, you know, AI's really hot. We talked about AI last season. We wanted to continue the conversation into this season, but we wanted to talk about really how AI has helped revolutionized our drug discovery process. But how do we do that in a way that is interesting because that topic is very complicated and can get very in the weeds. So we thought it, it would be really great to take our listeners through a journey in time of like, what was it like to create medicines before the internet, before computers even existed. We touch upon sequencing the human genome and how video games influence the software that we use to discover drugs today and really take people through that journey up until today and beyond of what's even capable out there.
Erica Santiago:
So it's really exciting. We really play a lot with the sound design. It's something I think that we wanna continue doing in the future. Immersing the audience in these like kind of cinematic episodes, which are really exciting. And just the overall mission of just Science Will Win in general. Each season is different. Each season touches on a different topic. We did talk about AI, but it's a little bit different than how we talked about it last season, but at the end of the day, we really just wanna talk about different health challenges, maybe emerging technologies to just get that information and those stories in front of people.
Aaron Strout:
Well, I love that you're doing that because I think, you know, we take for granted that we go to our doctor, they write us a prescription, we go to the pharmacy and they give us the prescription and no one really knows how the sausage is made, right? And we're not gonna dive into that, but I think it is important to understand how does it work today? I love that it's, you know, got some connection with the video gaming piece and how did it work? I mean, we're gonna go out on a limb, we're here with Pfizer. I think all of us, I know all of my friends and neighbors learned what mRNA was and like how vaccines worked. And I thought that was actually great that people finally did understand some of the science behind it. So kudos to you and the show for really helping people digest this and know what the process looks like.
Aaron Strout:
Shoshana, I promise I'd come over to you next. And so obviously TED Health spans a gamut of topics and speakers, which is part of why TED in general is such a great umbrella, right? In your case, each episode really does feel fresh and distinct and can be a standalone. Listen, even if you duck in and listen to the one on how to vampires and science come together, but one of the things that I want to know is like, how do you work to make the content feel unique week after week, while making sure that you do sort of fit into this umbrella of a theme so that people aren't like, where did this one come from?
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Well, sometimes they do say that. What, you're kind of all over the place, but we have a very kind of broad audience, which is both, you know, wonderful and also a challenge. I think, I think a lot about sort of the overall balance of the season because we're such a long season and making sure that we're covering a really wide range of diverse topics, to keep things dynamic. You know, one week we might feature a TED Talk about the cutting edge research on psychedelics. And then the next we're talking about how organ transplants work or the gut microbiome and immunity. And so one of the things that we do is we focus on newer TED content in terms of thinking about, you know, how to keep things fresh.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
And you know, I think everything from public health conversations to scientific breakthroughs, really it's about trying to make, bring in human stories and then make those conversations exciting for people. But—andso the TED Talk right, is just, you know, the beginning and then I try to set the stage either with my own personal insights or give context to why this particular talk that we featured is something that, you know, hey, you should listen to this and talk to your friends about it. And here are some tips for how you can live your best life as a result of it.
Aaron Strout:
Well, since you mentioned the innovation, and I, I'm gonna ask this one last question and then we're gonna do sort of a wrap up key takeaways from each of the panelists. 'Cause I know we're getting sort of short on time. So innovation, you can't just put out the same stuff over and over again, right? You have to find that balance of like, what is our theme? How do I stay within the theme? How do I not show up and have someone say, wait, did I get the wrong podcast? Right? And for anyone that watched American Horror Story, not a healthcare or science podcast, TV show, but the premise is you have, it is horror genre. You have a very different story, but you have a lot of the same characters playing different roles in each of the seasons. So, as an extreme example of that, Veronika, as someone that works with these creators, how do you help them think through their innovation process and saying like, let's stick enough to the guardrails, but not get so focused that we feel like we're on a 500 mile long straight highway going through the middle of the country on this podcast.
Veronika Taylor:
It's a great question. I do think those guardrails are important. I think listeners like habit, like they like knowing what they're coming back for, right? I think the format of TED Health, and it's similar to TED Talks Daily, is so comforting in that way. I don't think I would just go listen to a whole TED Talks, even if I was super interested. Like, not frequently at least, but the format of having you contextualize it and give me the, like, this is why you should care about this, is, is a really great way to like, have a format that can live a lot of lives, right? Like the format is there, but you can put any content into the middle of it if you handle it well. And I think that is kind of the secret to success in a long running podcast, how you stay innovative within that format.
Veronika Taylor:
I think one of the best ways to do that is to do audience research. So do surveys with your listeners and find out what they wanna hear more of or less of. One of those shows I mentioned earlier, Forever35, they just wanted to rethink. They'd been at it for a while. They got a new host who also happens to be the host of TED Talks Daily, and they wanted to just really hear from their listeners, some of whom had been with them for years to understand, what do you like, what do you hate? And from that they realized that some of the topics that they had been covering kind of in a fringe way were actually the topics that their listeners were most interested in. So they've now done a lot more kind of like midlife health topics. So they got a lot more, you know, their listeners have probably aged with them slightly. They're doing a lot more perimenopause content and things like that. Also, a lot, a whole arc on friendship and how friendship is so key to your health and wellbeing. Those are topics that they didn't even think of as core to their show until they did this audience research. And it's allowed the content to feel a lot fresher this year. So I think that's one of the best ways to do it.
Aaron Strout:
So that's another, I pointed each of you out and thank you for very specific points. That's one where I'm gonna say an executive coach in me at one point taught me feedback is a gift. I hated feedback for the longest part of my life because I was a little thin skinned if we're being honest. And I've tried to not be as thin skinned, but it is the thing that can make you better, particularly as a podcast hoe or show producer, the one thing I will caveat that's gonna reinforce your point is don't ask and then don't act on that. If you give people the opportunity to weigh in, doesn't mean you have to take everyone's feedback. There's a saying, you know, according to this guy named George Orwell and Animal Farm, all animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others, right? So there are key voices that you want to hear, but it is important to find out what do you want to hear about? And then how do I take that as part of the expert process and fold it into the guardrails and making sure that we're staying on tech. So, Erica we'll end with you on this one. So I'm sure you're thinking about upcoming seasons, like what is your innovation process with your shows and how do you keep them fresh? And then unless you wanna weigh in Shoshana, we'll do the lightning round.
Erica Santiago:
No, it's a good question. I think it's, it looks a lot like this, right? Showing up at places that you might not necessarily think that Pfizer would show up and doing live podcast sessions. This is our second one, but we'd love to do more of these hopefully on a consistent basis, so that's one way is to show up different ways. Also, I mean, I love the feedback suggestion, we do, I was thinking about what is the next topic? What are people talking about? Trying to keep our finger on the pulse is, you know, what's nice about Pfizer, it's been around for so long that it's innovative within itself, that you're able to stay so relevant for so long over the different errors and everything that's been going on since its course. So we kind of take cues from that and see where the next story will lead us.
Aaron Strout:
And for a 175-year-old company, that's probably not always the easiest thing. So, you know, kudos to you and Ellen and the team for really helping to bring that excitement and to bring this to South by Southwest and thinking about, how can we stay innovative and be with people that are here, that are changing the world and rethinking things in an important way. So, you know, kudos to you all for doing that. That's amazing. So, unless did you wanna weigh in this one? So why don't we start with the lightning round and I am gonna start with you. Truth be told, I sprung this on the guests or my fellow panelists, before we did this, but hopefully they had a little bit of time. I wanna just have them leave you with one thing that they would like you to take away from this conversation. So we'll start with you Shoshana, and go around to Erica.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Yeah, well, I think there was a lot of consistency in everything that we sort of mentioned, which was really nice. I mean, I guess I would say that one thing that I'm, 'cause you've seen me fiercely taking notes, one thing I'm gonna take away from this is, you know, getting feedback and data and insights on like what works and what doesn't is really, really important for the longevity of the show to reach potentially more people. So that's something that, you know I plan to do in the future.,I guess I would say, please, if you haven't listened to TED Health, check it out on your favorite podcast listening platform. And then also Before We Go, if you want sort of a different conversation about finding, you know, meaning in the fact that one day life ends for all of us. So maybe not a day where you're looking for something super upbeat 'cause it's a little bit of an intense show but, check it out.
Aaron Strout:
Well, so I love the humility there and I'm gonna make an analogy. This is a little bit like Taylor Sheridan saying, I really wanna get some like, stats and feedbacks on my show, Yellowstone. I wanna make sure that it's doing well. So, kudos to—
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Oh, I don't know about that. .
Well TED is a huge franchise and TED Health is a huge franchise. So, and I know you're talking also about your own personal podcast. Yeah. But you're being a little bit humble about that.
Shoshana Ungerleider:
But I do think it's always important to strive for better and you totally, you know, you can always refine and, so, but thank you I appreciate that.
Aaron Strout:
I'm giving you a compliment, but yes,
Shoshana Ungerleider:
Thank you sir.
Aaron Strout:
Totally, yes. It’s always better to strive for better. Veronika, how about you?
Veronika Taylor:
I mean, I got some good listening tidbits. I cannot wait to listen to the vampire episode, which I have not yet listened to.
Aaron Strout:
I mean, it's really good , it's short too, so it's like 15 or 20 minutes.
Veronika Taylor:
Great. And your hypothetical season. I haven't heard that one yet either, so I'm gonna go back and, and listen to that. So I got some great listening suggestions, which I always love.
Aaron Strout:
Awesome. And then Erica, bring us home.
Erica Santiago:
Yeah, I think, I don't know how many people in the audience or might be from the corporate world, but I think definitely stepping outside your box 'cause this is, you know, live events, especially in the pharma industry can be very difficult. Just take a leap step outside that box and a lot of things, really exciting things may come from that. And also scan that QR code for season four of Science Will Win. Thank you very much.
Aaron Strout:
Well, thank you. And so my takeaway is you can see that there's this balance between creativity and sort of sticking to a script. And so if you need help, reach out to the pros, like the Acast platform or find a producer, find people who, like I see Shawna Butler, she does an amazing podcast in the audience or Dr. Bayo, like people that have done podcasts and get their taken, ask a lot of them and say, what is it? You know, what worked, what didn't. With that, I would like to thank all of you for showing up on a Monday morning and sitting through this and listening. I would like to thank the—Ellen Gerstein and the Pfizer team for all of the hard work. Stephanie Agresta and the Ascendancy team and the UPG team who's helping to film South by Southwest Erica Santiago, Veronika Taylor, Shoshana Ungerleider, I love her name, but I have to think about it. So a round of applause for everyone. And as I mentioned, we'll be sticking around if you have specific questions for them afterward. Thank you.